It might also make it more difficult to get people to accept bi/homo sexuals… I think people can grasp the logic of two people in love regardless of gender but then you also throw in people who want surgery on their gentalia to emulate the opposite sex or whatever and I don’t necessarily think sex changes are healthy just because im Bisexual.. I think a person should accept who they are, that includes their body as nature made them.

If we drop lgbt and use the term ‘queer’ the community widens even more to include all those beyond heteronormativity. Gender is crucial to understanding and claiming one’s own sexual identity.

A Transgender person has a sexual orientation just like any other person. A transgender person is either straight, gay, lesbian, or bisexual. For example, an F2M transsexual who prefers to date women, is straight. Whereas a M2F transsexual who prefers to date women is a lesbian.

Failure to recognise that is a failure to acknowledge transsexualism at all.

Adding the T to LGBT makes it look like Transgendered is a sexual orientation, just like being lesbian, gay or bisexual. When in fact its something arguably far more important, its about gender identity.

I say its more important, because you can’t even begin to define your sexuality with any of the common labels until you first define your gender. Granted some people prefer to avoid giving themselves any labels. But if you are confused about who you are, finding where you fit into the world can be a huge step towards understanding yourself. And in this sense, a label can be useful.

Apparently, over time some men within this non-mainstream community started using the term “gay” in a less inclusive manner, so “lesbian” was tagged on to indicate groups and venues that were not men-only. Then over time, the terms “lesbian” and “gay” grew to be even less inclusive, to the point where some bisexuals felt they were being excluded, so “B” was tagged on to form “LGB”, again to help distinguish venues and groups that had different policies on inclusiveness. Then the same thing happened for “T”.

Saying that “LGBT” can be shortened to “LBG” because the “T” part is implicit (or irrelevant) is similar to saying that “LGB” can be shortened to “LG” (which in turn can be shortened to “G”) because the discarded parts are implicit (or irrelevant). As somebody who is bisexual, I would feel a bit uncomfortable if the “B” part was removed from “LGBT”, so I can understand why lesbians might feel uncomfortable if the “L” part was removed and why trans people might feel uncomfortable if the “T” was was removed.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the “LGBT” acronym becomes even longer in the future, to explicitly name people who have various fetishes: S&M, bondage, fetishwear and so on. Some people will argue against that on the grounds that sexuality is about which gender(s) you are attracted to, but other people will argue that there is so much more to sexuality than just attraction based on gender (such as which sexual positions you prefer, or what fantasies/role-plays work best for you).

This ever-lengthening acronym (“G”->”LG”->”LGB”->”LGBT”->”???”) is, getting more and more unwieldy from a linguistic point of view, which is why some people like the term “queer” as an “all inclusive” label. Of course, it’s only all-inclusive if (1) everyone is comfortable self-identifying with it (for example, one person who commented on this blog indicated that he does not identify as “queer”), and (2) people are happy to not restrict the meaning of the label (for example, “if you’re heterosexual and you like wearing frilly knickers and a dog collar then that isn’t sufficient to classify as queer”).

Put simply, I don’t think you are ever going to find categorization terminology that is universally acceptable.

Regards,
Ciaran.

OK: a [slightly] less flippant answer.
—
Common life experiences to LGB and T

Abuse for not “looking right” whether on your own or when seen with your partner(s)
That that abuse can continue through your life no matter how happy and sorted in who you are you might be
Discrimination in work and other such legal hassles
Harder to find an accepting suitable lover
Pressure to come out to family, friends, work and risk losing each
Likely to have lower qualifications and earnings due to life experiences of prejudice

Different life experiences of LGB vs T

One is about gender one is about sexuality, and yes those are significantly different things even if they can be tightly bound up in one another.
—

I don’t believe in a single solution here. There will be cases where LGB being kept separate makes sense (not in that you declare T people unwelcome but that they are welcome as LGB people who happen to be T just as your LGB work doesn’t actively exclude people who happen to wear glasses or what have you). There are cases where it makes sense to bring the different communities together – particularly where you are providing support to a small section of the LGBT population.

Finally when I use the word bisexual I use in its broadest sense to encompass anyone who is not asexual or monosexual (ie: attracted to only one gender).

I’ll take a look at the linked article in more detail (might even inspire a post) however, logically I cannot accept that being transsexual is another form of sexuality and more than being a man or being a women is a form of sexuality in itself.

Sexuality is about your sexual orientation relative to your gender. To define being transsexual as a sexual orientation therefore effectively denies anyone the possibility of anyone born into the ‘wrong body’ of self-identifying their gender.

For example: if one is to accept the right a M2F transgender person to identify as female, then one has to accept their can either be straight, gay, or bisexual. To label their sexuality as transsexual rather than LGB only serves to diminish their female identity.

As long as transsexual is treated as separate sexual orientation to LGB then M2F transgender people will always be second class women and F2M transgender people will always be second class men.

I have also always considered being transsexual as another form of sexuality, just like homosexuality and bisexuality, rather than the usual emphasis that its about ‘gender’.

Let’s not forget that trans people were at the very beginning of the gay liberation movement too.

On the subjects of such things, you might be interested in this recent article by Julie Bindel of the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/08/lesbianism

Not content with ridiculing and offending the Trans community the last 5 or so years, her latest piece also attacks Bi people too as being part of “a list of folks defined by odd sexual habits or characteristics.”

I think it’s time that the Bi-community also make their feelings known.

Maybe the problem with it for some people is because the actual word Transexual doesn’t describe a sexuality but, reality is that the lifestyles of most transexuals is homosexual or bisexual which, that in fact does describe sexuality.

For what it’s worth, I also like “queer” since bisexual often seems very clinical and unnatural, like “homosexual”. I know it’s a personal thing to get over, but bisexual still seems like a sort of “dirty word” or somewhat embarassing since it’s so misunderstood, whereas Queer has a sense, like “gay” of being natural and more loose and free.

There are two points I’d like to make.

1) I question the inclusion of the “T” in LGBT because I’m not sure its helpful to broaden public awareness of transpeople by confusing it with a sexual orientation, and being transgender is NOT a sexual orientation.

This is not about excluding transgender people or casting them out, that’s not my point. What I’m getting at is that if transgender people want the public to understand transsexualism better, then standing apart from the LGBT community is probably a better way to do, less they be condemned to the public thinking that being transgender is just some kind of weird sexual fetish.

Ask anyone on the streets to explain the difference between being a drag queen, a cross-dresser and transsexual and I guarantee you’ll get blank looks.

2) Jamie – I think you an I differ on this because we have different outlooks. You’re proud to be different and want to celebrate that. Whereas, I’d prefer it if the hetero-normal world didn’t give a shit what we were and just treated us like anyone of their number. These two view points aren’t contradictory, they can run hand in hand, they represent a difference in priorities rather than opinion.

But you are right a lot of the issues that apply to Transpeople also apply to bisexuals, they are a minority within a minority, which is probably why I’ve touched on the subject a couple of times.

I hate to say it, but I have to disagree with this post. Like I said above, very few of us fit neatly into a letter. We’re all struggling towards the same thing: not a strict definition, but equal rights and the ability to be who we are, without worrying so bloody much about either norms or letters. Transgendered people are looking for the same thing and having the same struggle, and in that sense, it’s their movement, too.

While we’re on the topic, I think a lot of bisexual issues are even more prominant in the transgendered community. That is, the lack of one, and even less acceptance even from the queer community. Transgendered people are often more visible and more targeted, with less community to fall back on.

All in all, I don’t think our movement is about men liking other men or women liking other women. That’s an oversimplification. The movement is about breaking out of the heteronormative mold. We can’t seperate who we are – including our gender – and our sexuality. They’re fundamentally intertwined in our much more complex identity. That’s why gender deviance is sexual deviance, and that’s where the T comes from.

The word in itself puts distance between us and the straight community which I dislike. And moreover it doesn’t accurately describe my world.

I’m ‘straight acting’, I have a mix of straight, lesbian, gay and bisexual friends. I’ve not got much interest in typical “gay culture”, I hang in mostly straight circles and I live a normal mostly uneventful life. To describe myself as “queer” simply doesn’t fit.

Please don’t mistake these remarks for me having some kind of P.C. hang-up about the word “queer”, I don’t I just don’t think its a very useful word for describing my sexuality.

For what it’s worth, i hope that comment didn’t come off as a criticism of the LBG community. It’s full of wonderful people, and that our cisgendered friends of varying sexualities include us trannies, despite the odd fit, is a credit to them.

No, they don’t belong on the LBG acronym if you think of the acronym as a list of different sexualities. If that was truly what the acronym stood for, then it should really be LGBS – Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Straight.

But if you think of the acronym as one of fringe-group or outcast sex-related identities, then LGBT is correct. And one day, I hope we will not need such an acronym.

There will be a day when hitting on the ‘wrong’ man won’t result in a trip to A&E (E.R. for US readers). A day when sexual orientation will be though of no differently than a preference for blondes or brunettes and gender is only a consideration for procreation.

However, we’re not there yet and Lex makes the same point I’m making. It seems Transsexuals have been thrown in with the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community because no-one else will have them.

“Welcome all thou Transgender people, come and join the rest of society’s rejects.”

Ahem! This hardly empowers the transgender agenda.