Nov 20 2008
How did the “T” get into LGBT?
Now I don’t wish to be excluding of Transgender people, but “how did the ‘T’ get into LGBT?” that was the question asked by Ll in the discussion on The Transgender Issue article. During the article I made the point that being transsexual is about gender identity and its not about sexuality. Sexuality is completely independent of gender its about orientation.
Irrespective of gender, a person is either heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual (for the purpose of this discussion lets exclude terms like pansexual, heteroflexible and not get bogged down in the debate about whether they are types of bisexuality or separate orientations). Now we call female homosexuals ‘lesbians’ and male homosexuals ‘gay’, that gives us the “LG” in LGBT. Whilst terms like lesbian and gay are gender selective, we are still talking about sexual orientation, not gender, beside couldn’t include homosexual in the acronym as the “H” would get confused with heterosexual.
Now the point, which I’m labouring towards, following the last paragraph of caveats, is that a Transgender person is like any other person, either straight, gay, lesbian, or bisexual. For example, an F2M transsexual who prefers to date women, is straight. Whereas a M2F transsexual who prefers to date women is a lesbian. Failure to recognise that is a failure to acknowledge transsexualism at all.
With that in mind, doesn’t the inclusion of “T” in LGBT suggest that trangender people have different sexual orientations to the rest of us? They don’t, so why have they been included in a way which suggests they have?
Granted there are a lot of non-accepting people out there who don’t recognise the gender transition. But why have we mixed gender identity up with sexual orientation? Not that I want to exclude transsexuals from the LGBT community. I don’t want to exclude anyone, not even straight people, but my point is there should have already been room for transgender people in the LGB groups or in the straight community. The fact that there wasn’t and a “T” had to be pegged on to the LGB acronym is a damning indictment of society’s prejudice.
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Hi Btw,
I think there are much openness for T people from the LBG community compared to the straight community.
I was discussing my bisexuality with my best friend who found out that I am bi recently, and he is a strong Christian. Every words he said about our sexuality is “wrong”. So I guess, some people just classify us as being “wrong”, which I hated the most. Shouldn’t have bother with this type of people.
So I think it is more acceptable for the T people to join this community, that the “ooh so right” community, where there is less judgment on who you are, but embrace who you really are.
You make a very good point, but there has been such sensitivity lately with regard to inclusion of transexualism in our community and our civil rights struggle that any semblance of exclusion - even though this really isn’t an exclusion - just seems… I don’t know… like hurt feelings waiting to happen.
The world over, society is slowly getting more tolerant. The pace of change varies and I don’t deny there are regular set backs, but there will come a day when the need for LGB or LGBT groups will cease.
There will be a day when hitting on the ‘wrong’ man won’t result in a trip to A&E (E.R. for US readers). A day when sexual orientation will be though of no differently than a preference for blondes or brunettes and gender is only a consideration for procreation.
However, we’re not there yet and Lex makes the same point I’m making. It seems Transsexuals have been thrown in with the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community because no-one else will have them.
“Welcome all thou Transgender people, come and join the rest of society’s rejects.”
Ahem! This hardly empowers the transgender agenda.
You’re absolutely right. I’d never thought about this before; I don’t know why. I think Lex and Karen have good points though, when they say that since transgenders are on the “other side of the fence” of socially accepted gender/sexuality identity–along with LBGs–there is a natural grouping.
No, they don’t belong on the LBG acronym if you think of the acronym as a list of different sexualities. If that was truly what the acronym stood for, then it should really be LGBS - Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Straight.
But if you think of the acronym as one of fringe-group or outcast sex-related identities, then LGBT is correct. And one day, I hope we will not need such an acronym.
Wow! I feel very flattered, having inspired a post.
For what it’s worth, i hope that comment didn’t come off as a criticism of the LBG community. It’s full of wonderful people, and that our cisgendered friends of varying sexualities include us trannies, despite the odd fit, is a credit to them.
You see, this is why I use the word “queer”, to describe anyone who breaks traditional gender boundaries, encompassing gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals, transvestites, pansexuals, asexuals, etc…
Now you see, I don’t like the word “queer” it implies there’s something strange or weird about having a non-standard sexual orientation.
The word in itself puts distance between us and the straight community which I dislike. And moreover it doesn’t accurately describe my world.
I’m ’straight acting’, I have a mix of straight, lesbian, gay and bisexual friends. I’ve not got much interest in typical “gay culture”, I hang in mostly straight circles and I live a normal mostly uneventful life. To describe myself as “queer” simply doesn’t fit.
Please don’t mistake these remarks for me having some kind of P.C. hang-up about the word “queer”, I don’t I just don’t think its a very useful word for describing my sexuality.
I like the use of ‘queer’. Try to think of it in the sense of breaking out of the norms and sanctioned sexual identity. I think it’s nice to have a word we can all identify with when we don’t fit neatly into G,L,B, or T - which is most common, of course, with the Bs.
I hate to say it, but I have to disagree with this post. Like I said above, very few of us fit neatly into a letter. We’re all struggling towards the same thing: not a strict definition, but equal rights and the ability to be who we are, without worrying so bloody much about either norms or letters. Transgendered people are looking for the same thing and having the same struggle, and in that sense, it’s their movement, too.
While we’re on the topic, I think a lot of bisexual issues are even more prominant in the transgendered community. That is, the lack of one, and even less acceptance even from the queer community. Transgendered people are often more visible and more targeted, with less community to fall back on.
All in all, I don’t think our movement is about men liking other men or women liking other women. That’s an oversimplification. The movement is about breaking out of the heteronormative mold. We can’t seperate who we are - including our gender - and our sexuality. They’re fundamentally intertwined in our much more complex identity. That’s why gender deviance is sexual deviance, and that’s where the T comes from.
Yep, or asexual
I like “queer” as well. But I guess I don’t mind being weird or strange. I agree that it’s hard to separate gender from sexuality. But from a practical standpoint, it makes sense that the queer community would be most supportive of the trans community, although that isn’t always the case. If trans people can’t get the support they need being part of LGBT, what kind of help would they get without being part of that group? I feel like transpeople are probably the most marginalized of LGBT, but they are a smaller group with fewer resources which makes it harder for them to organize independently. But, I don’t mind the whole alphabet soup. My personal favorite acronym is still “fabglitter”
This is exactly the kind of debate I hoped this article would produce.
There are two points I’d like to make.
1) I question the inclusion of the “T” in LGBT because I’m not sure its helpful to broaden public awareness of transpeople by confusing it with a sexual orientation, and being transgender is NOT a sexual orientation.
This is not about excluding transgender people or casting them out, that’s not my point. What I’m getting at is that if transgender people want the public to understand transsexualism better, then standing apart from the LGBT community is probably a better way to do, less they be condemned to the public thinking that being transgender is just some kind of weird sexual fetish.
Ask anyone on the streets to explain the difference between being a drag queen, a cross-dresser and transsexual and I guarantee you’ll get blank looks.
2) Jamie - I think you an I differ on this because we have different outlooks. You’re proud to be different and want to celebrate that. Whereas, I’d prefer it if the hetero-normal world didn’t give a shit what we were and just treated us like anyone of their number. These two view points aren’t contradictory, they can run hand in hand, they represent a difference in priorities rather than opinion.
But you are right a lot of the issues that apply to Transpeople also apply to bisexuals, they are a minority within a minority, which is probably why I’ve touched on the subject a couple of times.
I currently don’t like the word “queer” because it is often taken to mean exclusively homosexual, despite that not at all being the intent. The meaning that many people infer from it “flattens” the discourse, whereas the various acronyms are less likely to.
wow i love reading this blog. me being a bi man and from personal observation i think that the transgenderd are aceppted more in the LGBT community because we can see their point of view. to the straight community it seem like they concentrate on the aspect of them changing gender or being attracted to the same gender. i mean i’ve lost many because of my sexuality. so in a way they (transgender people) were never excluded from the LGBT just never recognized
I’ve also found more bi acceptance in the trans community, since they tend not to see things in terms of either/or.
For what it’s worth, I also like “queer” since bisexual often seems very clinical and unnatural, like “homosexual”. I know it’s a personal thing to get over, but bisexual still seems like a sort of “dirty word” or somewhat embarassing since it’s so misunderstood, whereas Queer has a sense, like “gay” of being natural and more loose and free.
I’d just like to say that most people who have sex changes are attracted to people of the same sex, as in the sex prior to the sex change. Not saying that in all cases this is true but, for the vast majority it is. Therefore homosexuality and sex changes coincide. I don’t care what gender you are if you’re attracted to the same gender as your own then you are a homosexual or bisexual if you like both. Getting an operation isn’t going to make you straight. In saying this I’m not denying a person’s gender after a sex change but, as far as the sexuality part it is what it is. With this being said I can perfectly see why the T is apart of the LGB and I don’t see a problem with it.
Maybe the problem with it for some people is because the actual word Transexual doesn’t describe a sexuality but, reality is that the lifestyles of most transexuals is homosexual or bisexual which, that in fact does describe sexuality.
As a transsexual, and who is bisexual, I feel I am more than part of the LGBT group.
I have also always considered being transsexual as another form of sexuality, just like homosexuality and bisexuality, rather than the usual emphasis that its about ‘gender’.
Let’s not forget that trans people were at the very beginning of the gay liberation movement too.
On the subjects of such things, you might be interested in this recent article by Julie Bindel of the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/08/lesbianism
Not content with ridiculing and offending the Trans community the last 5 or so years, her latest piece also attacks Bi people too as being part of “a list of folks defined by odd sexual habits or characteristics.”
I think it’s time that the Bi-community also make their feelings known.
Hi Steph
I’ll take a look at the linked article in more detail (might even inspire a post) however, logically I cannot accept that being transsexual is another form of sexuality and more than being a man or being a women is a form of sexuality in itself.
Sexuality is about your sexual orientation relative to your gender. To define being transsexual as a sexual orientation therefore effectively denies anyone the possibility of anyone born into the ‘wrong body’ of self-identifying their gender.
For example: if one is to accept the right a M2F transgender person to identify as female, then one has to accept their can either be straight, gay, or bisexual. To label their sexuality as transsexual rather than LGB only serves to diminish their female identity.
As long as transsexual is treated as separate sexual orientation to LGB then M2F transgender people will always be second class women and F2M transgender people will always be second class men.
Point of clarity, when I limit sexuality to three possibilities I am doing so out of convention and for the purpose of clarity, I am perfectly aware that one can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or alternatively asexual (ie: not interested or active in sexual activities with others).
Finally when I use the word bisexual I use in its broadest sense to encompass anyone who is not asexual or monosexual (ie: attracted to only one gender).
Hell, we put gay men and women into the same organisations and collective label, despite what can be an enormous gulf between them of interest and life experience - why not include trans people?
OK: a [slightly] less flippant answer.
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Common life experiences to LGB and T
Abuse for not “looking right” whether on your own or when seen with your partner(s)
That that abuse can continue through your life no matter how happy and sorted in who you are you might be
Discrimination in work and other such legal hassles
Harder to find an accepting suitable lover
Pressure to come out to family, friends, work and risk losing each
Likely to have lower qualifications and earnings due to life experiences of prejudice
Different life experiences of LGB vs T
One is about gender one is about sexuality, and yes those are significantly different things even if they can be tightly bound up in one another.
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I don’t believe in a single solution here. There will be cases where LGB being kept separate makes sense (not in that you declare T people unwelcome but that they are welcome as LGB people who happen to be T just as your LGB work doesn’t actively exclude people who happen to wear glasses or what have you). There are cases where it makes sense to bring the different communities together - particularly where you are providing support to a small section of the LGBT population.