May 17 2008
The children might see
Homophobia seems to frequently take the guise of child protection, which is irritating as it perpetuates the myth that homosexuals and bisexuals are somehow not child friendly. And this belief was illustrated wonderfully today by one of my friends who over lunch confidently declared that he didn’t mind gays and lesbians but thought that “they shouldn’t be allowed to have these marches on the streets because children might see”.
I had a little flutter where I was first angry that this guy hadn’t taken the time to realise he was talking to a bisexual. I mean would it kill you to read the first 5 lines of my Facebook profile? You post on my wall often enough! But that soon passed into outrage at what he’d just said.
“Children might see?” Er… good! Let them get a good look. Perhaps if children were exposed to homosexuality as something normal rather than something taboo, then they wouldn’t turn out to be sexually repressed bigots? Just maybe if children grew up seeing Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people holding hands in public, they won’t grow up to be the prissy grannies who ‘tut’ at us when we show outwards signs of affection for one another.
Honestly, aren’t you just waiting for the Simpson’s character Helen LoveJoy to appear and shout her morally outraged catchphrase: “Will someone please think of the children?”
In spite of the repeal of Section 28, homosexuality is still something children are rarely exposed to or allowed to openly discuss due to peer pressure, bullying and homophobia. Everyone is worried about protecting Children from homosexuality – but why? Is it really such a threat? Do people still honestly believe its a perversion?
Even magazines like The Pink Paper and the Gay Times still find themselves placed on the top shelf in many newsagents. They are placed out of reach along with the porno-mags, even though there is no full on nudity in either title. What’s with that? – “But the children might see…”
All this misplaced ‘child protection’, stems from the assumption that people are born straight and they can only become lesbian, gay or bisexual through exposure to homosexuality. Well that’s bollox! And what’s more, I’ve got a radical alternative theory. Its not new, its over 80 years old. It was first coined by psychiatrist Sigmund Freud in 1920, its the theory of innate bisexuality.
Innate bisexuality means we are predisposed to bisexuality. Or in other words we are born bisexual but social pressures make us straight, not vice versa. This is accomplished by religion and society vilifying homosexual acts so they are treated as something disgusting and taboo. Of course whilst this conditioning successfully represses most of us, it fails on a small percentage who are banished into Gay-dom. Gay-dom also successfully represses bisexuality in its own way, most notably by constantly discussing it as a “phase” or in 1980′s lesbian-feminist circles treating it as a betrayal of one-self to your male oppressors. Ahem, moving on…
Now innate bisexuality is just a theory, but there is as more evidence to support than there is to support the notion that we are all born straight and then some how corrupted by homosexuality. So with this in mind, the next logical step is to protect children from the overt heterosexual bias. If we don’t, then surely we risk corrupting their precious and innocent innate bisexuality?
“Will someone please think of the children!”
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31 Responses to “The children might see”
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Children is a subject that should be handled with kids gloves.
Maybe it is because I was born, raised and live in the heart of the bible belt, but, openly showing affection in public, no matter what you sexual preference is frowned upon.
However I am seeing this changing very slowly. I notice as I pass through school zones, that I see many girls and some boys openly holding hands, hugging and sometimes even kissing in public.
No matter what a parents views, kids are being exposed to many different sexual live styles. Cable, satellite TV and the internet are the main sources.
Times are a changing!!
I did try to handle it lightly – but the point that angers me is that homosexuality and bisexuality as an orientation, not just a practice is still considered obscene – adult only – not child friendly.
Parents still try to “protect” their children from non-heterosexualism. They have this misplaced believe that if children aren’t exposed to homosexuality it they won’t entertain it. But all that does is leave gay and bisexual teenagers unhappy, confused about their sexual orientation and firmly shut in the closet. Suicide rates amongst gay, lesbian and bisexual teens are up to 3 times higher than those of their straight peers and this is largely due to bullying and fear of non-acceptance.
LGBT teenagers can take refugee from bullying and non-acceptance within the LGBT community only if they are aware of its existence and they are more likely to make that step if they realise that the wider world is accepting homosexuality even if their immediate circumstances (family or school playground) are not.
With this in mind LGBT visibility is vital.
This is a very important point and your follow up comment brings up another important point. However, I can see where Pobept is coming from, too. I was brought up in an atmosphere in which affection was fine, but romantic or sexual affection was checked.
Now it is obvious that this isn’t so much the case anymore and there are pros and cons to that without considering the nonheterosexual element at all. The degree to which an individual is comfortable with public displays of affection even of the heterosexual sort has to at least be taken into consideration before you can even discern how much of the problem is that the two participants are not hetero.
But all that aside, this fact remains: I’d hardly think twice about holding a guy’s hand in public, but it’s a very rare occasion when I’d hold a women’s hand in public. And I wish that weren’t the case.
I love the way Karen (on her own blog) refers to the nurture over nature theory as the “cootie theory”. I’m so jealous that I didn’t come up with that myself.
Awesome article. I totally agree. There needs to be some big reform in that department. There is nothing wrong with children seeing affection and even knowing two people have sex. This idea of hiding human sexuality from children is ridiculous. I once heard that children who know their parents have good sex lives go on to have good sex lives themselves as they get older. I don’t think that would change if their parents were two guys or two girls. So long as they are in a loving home that is all that really matters.
Public displays of affection make me a little uncomfortable, regardless of orientation.
Still, I think that if public displays from heterosexual couples are acceptable, then the same should be acceptable from homosexual couples. Period.
Isa,
When I talk about public displays of affection, I’m talking about holding hands or greeting your boyfriend/girlfriend with a kiss. That really shouldn’t make anyone uncomfortable. Indeed it doesn’t if its between a straight couple, but if its between a gay couple… well…
I think that you, the author, missed the point of what your friend did a horrible job of trying to communicate.
This isn’t about homosexuality, bisexuality, or even public displays of affection. This is about what I consider inappropriate behaviour and displays during GBLT parades across North America. I’m not talking about walking hand in hand, I’m not talking about kissing. I’m talking about topless women having their nipples kissed, leather-clad men being led by collar & leash, sadist & masochistic themes, etc.
Before you get defensive, I am a bisexual male myself and believe me, I know ALL about the pre-judging and the stereotyping. However, I believe that pride parades should be family-friendly, because YES, the children MIGHT see something that you and I might consider a normal part of adult sexuality, but that exposure to at a tender age DOES cause problems and issues.
Let’s remove the GBLT element. Let’s imagine a word where everybody is heterosexual (I know, I know, but stay with me). Now, imagine a “Heterosexuality Pride Parade”. Dream up the kinds of things which adults might do to display their heterosexuality. Now imagine kids there watching it. There’s a *concern* over whether the subject matter is appropriate for a 5-year old (at least for me).
Now, the reality is that heterosexuals don’t have pride parades (why not, I’ll never know), so we only have GBLT parades to talk about. You’re making it a discrimination issue when there isn’t one there.
Children shouldn’t have to grope with why mommy & daddy are attracted to one another (or, equally, why their two mommy’s or two daddy’s are attracted to one another).
I honestly don’t see the value of a pride parade to a child. The risks outweigh the benefits. Saying that a child will grow up to be a sexual bigot because they never attended a pride parade is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. They didn’t HAVE pride parades when I was 5, and here I am, bi-er than the Red Baron’s airplane.
Stop using specious reasoning and hiding behind the rainbow flag just because you can’t see past your own nose.
major kudos,
i completely agree. i wrote a girl/girl fairytale with this same idea in mind. most kiddie lit that handles lgbt is dealing with the 2 mommys/daddies perspective but hardly ever presents gay couples that the children are actually intended to identify with. part of the reason why ppl have so much difficulty understanding the nature of thier feelings earlier (or at all) is because of a complete lack of frame of reference. a childhood full of prince/princess fantasies being pushed on us is not easy to undo and it conditions ppl to accept it as normal at face value.
on the other hand — as far as pride marches themselves, maybe they aren’t the best form of gay-visibility as far as children are concerned. esp when they include sm costumes and generally adult behavior. frankly, to a child that doesn’t have a lot of context, excited ppl in scary costumes can seem like “freaks” which is definetly not the impression we want to make. don’t get me wrong, i don’t want to do away with any aspect of pride celebrations! but homo/bisexuals need to be incorporated into kid-friendly culture, literature, movies, education, etc
Gotcha. IMO holding hands or greeting your partner with a kiss is acceptable and cute, whether you’re gay or straight, and I agree that you probably have some underlying issues if that makes you uncomfortable.
I was thinking more along the lines of ‘making out in public.’ Tacky.
As for the original topic of the post… I agree entirely. Let the children see; there is nothing immoral or unnatural about people being open about their sexual orientation.
Jeff
Well frankly I think you missed the point of the post, which was to highlight the fact that homosexuality is still considered by many people to be something perverse that children should not be exposed to.
This to address your points, I don’t know what pride marches you’ve seen, but I’ve never seen S&M showcased in a way that would be obscene or offensive during a pride march. In fact the leather clad S&Mers leading each other around with dog-leads, is most likely to go completely over a child’s head and would probably be regarded as just another act in what many children would see as a rather weird, gaily coloured carnival procession, with a lot of people in drag.
Contrast any pride march with an BDSM street festival organised by the society of Janus in San Francisco and a Pride March looks rather more like a fancy dress party.
As for topless women? What’s your hang-up? Are you some kind of puritan? Every child who was breast fed has seen a nipple. Maybe we have a culture gap here, but when I was growing up in the 1980′s and 1990′s every beach or hotel pool in Europe was clad with topless women, the trend seems to have faded somewhat in the last 10 years, but honestly I don’t consider boobs to be obscene and I don’t suspect children do either.
At the end of the day we pass our prejudices and sexual hangups onto our children, we burden them with guilt about their own bodies, yet left to their own devices they’d be like babes in the woods.
The innocence of Adam and Eve live in every child born to this planet until we adults corrupt them with shame and guilt. That might sound a little new-age hippy (which I’m not) but it certainly is looking beyond my nose.
Actually, during childhood is the best time to explain what bi and gay are to children. The explanation can be very simple like: You know how some guys like to have a girlfriend and some girls like to have a boyfriend? Well some people like to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. That’s called bisexual. etc.
Children as young as six can understand this concept.
When you tell children young, you bypass homophobia and normalize bisexuality.
Although kids still get indoctrinated in homophobia in Junior HS, they already know that being bi or gay is normal.
After junior high, it’s harder because they have already been convinced that gay is bad.
In my son’s case, I told him about gay before we went to a gay picnic when he was six and I told him about bisexual when he heard it on my answering machine when he was 8. I took him to march in Pride a couple of times and used to take him with me to the LGBT Community Center. I couldnt afford babysitters, so wherever I went, he went, unless he was with his dad.
My son turned out very heterosexual and doesnt come with me to anything bi or gay anymore but he is very supportive and has even dated a few bi women (he’s now 25.)
Everybody here is speaking as if anything done during a Gay Pride parade can compare to things done during your average Mardi Gras or the European/South American Carnivale where blatant displays of public sexuality are de rigeur. I tried to look something up but it is plain that the heterosexual pride parade is not causing concern. I don’t really agree to public sex acts. Using people who are not agreeing to participate is simply not kosher and kids don’t understand so much the consequences of what they are walking into. I am not so sure, tho, that my puritan-upbringing sorts out the defining line between PDAs and sex acts so very well. Perhaps someone else can track down the pertinent studies>
Well frankly most pride marches turn out to be a lot less explicit than your average Mardi-Gras/Carnival.
Fundamentally I think the problem here is people are confusing sex and sexuality. Pride marches celebrate sexual diversity, ie: sexuality – they do not celebrate sex.
In many ways this blog is the same, it discusses sexuality not sex – I do not consider the subject matter of this blog to be adult only content. In fact I think its very important that this kind of content is accessible to young teenagers. Ditto for Pride Marches.
As for younger children, well they would just see a Pride March as a fancy dress parade, it wouldn’t occur to them to see it in a sexual context. Even the leather clad S&Mers would just look like people playing prisoner and jailer.
So what’s the problem?
i believe that a lot of children, even children who are not influenced at all by any homophobic people (as far as i am aware) still think of homosexuality as a perversion.
just the other day, my boyfriends younger sister, who is still in elementary school overheard a conversation in which we were talking about a friend of ours (male) who had recently met his new boyfriend.
her response was far from accepting, i believe she said something along the lines of “ew, thats disgusting”.
mind you, homosexuals have heard much worse, but the point is that i’ve heard children speaking like that about anything homosexual, whether it is brought up in a discussion or they have seen something on the television.
i think it is totally wrong to suggest that homosexuality be kept hidden from children.
if that was so,
one: children who are homosexual, believe they are or are becoming homosexual, will always be put down for it, no one will be out there to act as a role model for them, they will feel the need to hide themselves from society.
and two: that is not giving children a fair choice in life. they should be able to choose what gender they prefer just as much as they should be able to choose what religion they want to follow.
I’d disagree with your point about children developing homophobia without adult influence. I’d be pretty sure the child in your example has already had her mind poisoned by an adult.
Think about it. Whilst girls as young as pre-school age pick up the idea of families with a mummy and a daddy as the norm, there is no basis for a child to attach disgust to something that doesn’t fit their world view. Lets face it most children would continue to pick their noses until adulthood unless an adult had told them it was “disgusting”.
Most young boys in contrast are hetero-phobic, preferring to have nothing to do with girls until puberty. I remember growing up in Yorkshire, my brother and I hung out with just one girl and the only reason we did was because she was a tomboy and consequently boyish enough to fit in with our shenanigans.
I think Taylor was saying that children who do not have homophobic adults around will learn to be homophobic by society unless they are explicitly taught that it is wrong. As a former pre-school teacher I can attest to how much children of only 2 or 3 observe and absorb. The children would come in and tell me about something that someone said in a grocery store line or reciting things from t.v. The fact is, that our society is not open to ‘alternative’ lifestyles and in order to change that we explicitly need to teach our children to be non-prejudiced.
When it comes to the parades, I personally, would not bring a young child to Mardi Gras parades; however, I have attended gay pride days that were completely family friendly. The leather and BDSM communities were there and they did it in such a way that there was barely any more adult material than there were for a couple of the local churches who also attended. It is possible for people to celebrate sexuality in a way that is not offensive to people who are not looking for a reason to be offended. I realize that nudity in real life is more common in Europe than in the U.S. but we’re in the U.S. If we want the LGBT community to become mainstream in the U.S. then we need to follow some of the basic tenants of the community we want to be accepted by. I do not want to be considered part of a circus act that is paraded down the street but rather as the logical, responsible and trustworthy person that I am.
Let me start by saying this is an excellent discussion. I have read many personal posts like this (format-wise) on the internet and this is the most civilized one I have seen yet.
bitheway has an interesting point about the so-called adult nature (or lack thereof) of this topic. The sad thing is people seem to regard anything that is the least bit different from themselves as deviant or weird. I found this discussion through StumbleUpon. The problem is “Bisexual Culture” is listed under the “Adult” category. In other words, being bisexual is only for adults. Sadly, “Gay Culture” and “Lesbian Culture” are also considered adult material. Bisexual, Gay, and Lesbian SEXUAL material are certainly adult in nature, but to reduce the CULTURE of the LGBT community to sex is insulting! My Bisexuality is not the [same] as my choice of who I have sex with.
I attend higschool in the seattle area and around here LGBT is considered fairly normal amongst the students. Most of us do end up considering ourselves heterosexual. However, a good size chunk of us consider ourselves gay bi or bi-curious, myself included. Over time its becoming more of an accepted lifestyle. If not in my generation then in the next, it will be no more tabboo than heterosexuality.
We are everywhere! Sorry, straight people! I’m another Bi Guy and it’s not like the GLBT community is having sex in the streets. Many more kids are being raised by Queer parents, so maybe one day it’ll be less of a stigma to be GLBT, or to heaven forbid,… associate with us! There are many many more of us out there in the world who don’t march in the parades and aren’t in the photos online for all the world to see. Being out and proud is very important! Kids need to be carefully taught, too. Love people equally!
It’s sad that in the 21st century people still have that attitude of well, I’d have lunch with a fag, but I would want them teaching my kids in school….
We’re always gonna be here. Get used to it!
I am one of the most comfortable straight people I’ve ever met, to the point where most people I meet think I’m either gay or bi. I have agreed with a lot of what has been said here, but I must agree with one point in particular which has been put down. GLBT parades, and non-heterosexuality in public are two very different things. I agree that non-hetero culture should not be kept from children, any more then hetero culture should be. It’s all one world folks, and we’re all one people, so if you’ve got a problem with it, suck it up.
My problem is this. I’ve been to a few GLBT parades, and though I agree that a bare breast is not a big deal these days (although a straight woman walking around topless here in North America gets her charged), having two topless women making out and sucking each others breasts is just public pornography, which we keep from our kids. Now, I agree with you, Mardi Gras, and Carnivale are the same way, but I wouldn’t take my 5 year old to those either.
This problem however stems from bigot behavior, by the way. If bigots didn’t make it so taboo to be non-hetero, then it is likely that other “taboos” such as public nudity would seem more reasonable to the victims. Look at children, you give them one unreasonable rule, and they will begin to break the reasonable ones as well.
I’m not saying GLBT Pride is a bad thing, personally I think it should just be Sexuality Pride, where everyone can get together and celebrate their sexuality. But I still would never take a small child to it.
And one quick aside, in GLBT Parades are an example of one of my biggest pet peeves. The modern “equality” movements, have started to go way to far. I am a straight, white, anglosaxon male, and with the laws that keep coming out, I’m screwed. Anyone who isn’t part of “the man” gets an extra advantage now. Around here, Homosexual married couples get MASSIVE tax breaks, (EDITOR’S NOTE: FACT CHECK!! See Below!!) men are practically required to hire any woman that comes in for an interview for fear of being sued, and companies are smacked with quotas requiring them to hire X people from each race you can name. I have been turned down for jobs in favor of hiring someone who knew nothing about the job, but filled a quota or two. The bigotry has to stop, from all sides, not just the WASPs.
Comfortable
To clarify some of your statements about perceived positive discrimination.
“Homosexual married couples get MASSIVE tax breaks”
FACT: In the UK, homosexual couples in a civil partnership get the same tax benefits as straight married couples.
Read more here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/married-allow.htm
men are practically required to hire any woman that comes in for an interview for fear of being sued and companies are smacked with quotas requiring them to hire X people from each race you can name.
FACT: Positive Discrimination is illegal in the UK quotas/selective systems are not permitted. An exception to this is a provision made under the 1998 Good Friday Agreement which requires that the Police Service of Northern Ireland recruit equal numbers of Catholics and non-Catholics.
Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Europe
If you feel you have been unfairly treated you should take your claim to an employment tribunal. Perceptions of positive discrimination in the UK are rife, most people are unaware that its against the law. However, I can’t recall of anyone WASPs suing for positive discrimination, either this means all WASPs are ignorant of the law or perception of positive discrimination has no basis in reality and there are no cases to bring.
You decide which.
You Are Wrong
Were you referring to the original article or my previous comment?
The comment is 100% factually correct, check it for yourself, so I assume that you are referring to the original article.
Care to explain why I’m wrong?
I do not need another voice on how to raise my child. I support LGBT rights and causes but being open minded does not mean just to your ideas. Where is your empathy to my side. They will grow up eventually on their own time, not on your agenda.
The world does not revolve around you. The world does not revolve around me. Everything takes time, let it flow naturally.
Danielle, your posts highlights the real ignorance of LGBT rights that propagates throughout society. You have totally misunderstood my point, I completely disagree with everything you wrote, and furthermore, I don’t like your tone.
Consequently, I’m going to rip your post to shreds…
1) When it comes to raising children, we always need to hear more voices. The interchange of ideas is how society grows. Irrespective of how good your parenting skills are there is always room to improve. One way to do that is to listen to other voices.
I’ll also add, that this is a web page, you sought out my opinion, if you “don’t need another voice on how to raise your child” why did you read my post?
2) You go-on to completely miss the point of my post which is that if we are to avoid homophobia and inherent bigotry & prejudice towards LGBT couples then we need to normalise same-sex relationships (not sex) in the eyes of children.
This can be as simple and as innocent as saying, “some times men and women fall in love and get married, other times two men fall in love and get married too. Both are OK.”
Homosexuality is a perfectly normal thing. What I’m arguing for is that parents let their children grow up knowing that its OK to be Gay. Rather than keeping them in ignorance and letting them become aware of homosexuality after the first time the word “gay” is used a playground insult. Which naturally prejudices them against the term.
3) I think though what angers me most about your post though, is that you are implying I’m pressing my values on you and your children.
When clearly I am not, (remember you sought out my opinion,) but it is in fact you who are imposing your preference for heterosexuality on your children, by not giving it an equal footing with homosexuality.
Bottom line is that sexual orientation is most likely very normal.
I most enjoy Mono Sexual.
But I was Genitally Mutilated at a tender age. This left me with a very Negative View on sex.
Seminal Fluid must be evacuated. otherwise it can cause all kinds of problems such as cancer. But missing so many foot of nerve endings, my brain waits for a signal that will never arrive.
there is a human factor and children all know kindness.
But do they Know education? I am all for it.
You can’t teach what you do not know.
It is very annoying how bisexuality or homosexuality is still seen as some sort of corruption.
I’m an openly bisexual woman and often am asked “When did you know you were bi?”
My answer is “When I was six.”
The inevitable next question is usually along these lines; “Oh my God! Were you abused?”
No, I was not. My parents were both straight, monogamous, typical Midwesterners. I was born this way, I don’t regret it, and I don’t believe I could do any influence to a child in terms of their sexuality aside from this:
I could make my child feel comfortable with their sexuality and encourage them to examine and question it freely, and accept themselves, no matter who they turn out to be.
Bingo! That’s what society is afraid of; the act of thinking. Big shock in a world of creationists.
I doubt it will change, any of it; humans just won’t wake up.
I hadn’t heard of Freud’s take on innate bisexuality. However, I have read somewhere that he decided homosexuality was caused by nothing more than an unresolved Oedipus complex. And I believe he also grouped gayness with pedophilia.
Hansel
Not sure what you are reading, but you seem to have confused some of his ideas.
Freud held that the unsuccessful resolution of the Oedipus complex could result in neurosis, paedophilia, and homosexuality.
The “and” in this sentence does not mean that unsuccessful resolution of an Oedipus complex will result in all three conditions, but that it can result in any or all of the conditions.
For example drinking alcohol can (amongst other things) result in feeling relaxed, reduced of coordination and dehydration.
All 3 are possible outcomes of drinking alcohol, not all 3 result all of the time, they are neither mutually exclusive or inclusive outcomes. However, would you instantly associate being relaxed with dehydration?
I think not.
In response to the article and not to anyone’s comment, I agree 100% that someone is somehow born into homosexuality, and doesn’t become homosexual from exposure.
Growing up, I went to a private school from kindergarten to eighth grade. I had no idea what homosexuality was… no one discussed it. As I got older, the only exposure I had to homosexuality was when I heard people say “Dude, you are gay” or “That’s gay, “meant as an insult. It wasn’t until high school that I understood what homosexuality was, and even then I wasn’t around any gay people. There were one or two homosexual people in school, but I hardly knew them and they didn’t flaunt their sexuality all over the halls.
Even though, my whole life, I hardly experienced anything involving homosexuality, I came to realize in my senior year of high school that I was gay. In retrospect, I linked many early instances in my life to my homosexuality.
If homosexuality is induced from exposure, then how can they explain me? Especially when I was in second grade and only knew that I had a crush on another girl, and not the labeled name for it or that it was “un-normal?”
And as far as public exposure goes, I agree that being overly affectionate in public, no matter the sexual orientation of the couple, is frowned upon. However, it is not frowned upon for a man and a woman to hold hands while it might be for a man and a man or a woman and a woman to hold hands. Honestly, I would rather not see anyone making out in public, but it seems more acceptable for a heterosexual couple to do so than a homosexual couple. There is nothing perverse about loving someone and being different from others. If we teach children that there is something wrong with that, then we are teaching them to conform to the norm. It contradicts what we have been telling them: Be your own person and be true to yourself.